20 Questions With HousingWire Editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler | Optimal Blue Summit | January 2025 Data

Speaker A: 00:01:07

Welcome to Market Advantage, the monthly podcast from Optimal Blue. Tune in for valuable insights from the.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:01:14

Market Advantage Mortgage data report and in.

Speaker A: 00:01:17

Depth conversations with industry experts. Stay competitive and optimize your advantage in the ever evolving mortgage landscape.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:01:25

All right, welcome to our first ever in person recording of the Market Advantage podcast. So, as you're probably aware, usually Brennan and I are recording from our home offices. So this is a real treat to be recording on site.

We are in San Diego right now at the Optimal Blue Summit, which is our inaugural user conference. And the day has been filled with exciting product announcements, informative sessions, and lots of great conversations with clients and partners.

So it's really great to feel the energy of on site. Brennan, how does it feel to not be sitting in your basement recording this for once?

Brennan O'Connell: 00:01:59

Yeah, you know, I was looking around and I kind of think I need to get some of this, some of these rectangular shrubs for the basement. I feel like it could be in addition to the ambiance, the, the sort of like 70s Midwest basement feel that I've been going with.

I don't know if it's, it's up to, up to speed with what we got in San Diego, but we'll just enjoy it while we're out here.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:02:21

That sounds great.

And you know, hopefully it goes without saying, amid all of the excitement of our conference, you may hear some background noises that you don't usually get. So just know that's probably our clients having conversations or sessions going or having fun or having fun. There has been a lot of fun.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:02:37

It's actually been kind of fun.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:02:38

It has been fun. Yeah. And it's really just getting started. We have the big bash tonight.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:02:42

That's right, the day is young.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:02:45

So as always, Brennan's going to kick us off with the data highlights, but you'll want to hold on because we have a really special guest today. We have editor in Chief of HousingWire Sarah Wheeler joining us.

So, Brennan, why don't you dive into January's rate lock data highlights before we welcome Sarah.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:03:00

Yeah, appreciate it, Olivia. So the year kicked off with double digit growth in rate lock activity.

As expected, seasonal improvement coming from December, which is typically the lowest month. Volumes rose nearly 11% in January.

That growth was driven by a 16 month over month increase in purchase volume and actually a 9% increase in cash out volume rate. Term refi volumes dipped 20% from December as a result of a less friendly rate environment for most of the month in January.

f where we were in January of: 2024

So purchase lock volume, although it was up month over month, it was, it was actually down slightly on a year over year basis, which was a little bit disappointing.

t. So Those counts in January: 2025

And after a strong finish to: 2024

% from the same time in: 2024

se in rate. So if you look at: 2024

And I think the obvious reason here is that you have a larger pool of refinanceable mortgages. So I do think that's a, that's a good story. It's a good trend for our originators just to know that there is pockets of refinances out there.

And so even though here we are up year over year in terms of rates, we're actually still seeing more, more volume even from a refinance perspective than we were 12 months ago.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:05:28

That's, that's really interesting. So in terms of rates, what else, what else is there to share from January about the rate environment?

Brennan O'Connell: 00:05:34

Yeah, so, so as I mentioned, the rates kind of ticked up to start the month. So. So for most of January we were in a place that was less advantageous than, than we were in December.

Rates actually were above 7% for a number of weeks and kind of the middle of the month, first time we had seen that 7 handle since May. The mortgages did rally to close out the month though.

And our optimal blue 30 year conforming rate, that's the one that I'll make the plug for the CME mortgage rate futures contract, which was launched just this last month too.

So the benchmark OBMMI 30 year conforming rate, OB30C for those folks who use it on Bloomberg, that rate finished the month roughly flat up just 1 basis point at 6.84%. Jumbo rates were up 2 basis points. FHA was unchanged. VA rates were up 4 bips. And very little change on the USDA front as well.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:06:39

And I feel like we'd be remiss not to give a quick shout out to CME Group who is here at our conference, and they're actually one of our generous sponsors. So they sponsored the Espresso Yourself Cafe. So they are everybody's favorite sponsor because they are keeping us all caffeinated and.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:06:54

Having fun out in the lobby here.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:06:57

Absolutely. That's probably some of the noise you hear. So all good stuff, but let's shift to production mix. What's the news there from January?

Brennan O'Connell: 00:07:05

Yeah, so we talked about it last month.

Conforming share is now nearing 50% of production, which is extraordinarily low compared to where it was say two or three years ago when you were up and seeing something like 3/4 of all production as Fannie and Freddie eligible. So we dipped down to 51% in December. We did see a modest increase. So it had been a number of months of decline in terms of the conforming share.

We didn't see that continue in January. So we sort of saw a leveling out and, and that was at the expense of some non conforming and FHA share.

So FHA and non conforming gave up a little bit of share to conforming Fannie Freddie eligible loans. And the VA share was, was mostly flat month over month.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:07:56

Very good. Well, thanks for that data recap, Brennan. I think it's time we go let Sarah in. That's. That's who everybody really wants to hear from. Right?

So hold on one minute, we'll be right back. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us on site at the Optimal Blue Summit. You have been such an important part of this event for us.

You moderated a panel this morning that went really well. It was so well attended and we are so thrilled to have you as a guest on our Market Advantage podcast.

And I know Brennan and I were talking before this. Usually we record this from our home offices, so this is quite a treat. Thanks for being here.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:08:30

It is a treat for me. I've had a great time at the conference, but also it's just so much fun to join you guys. Love it.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:08:35

Yeah. Feeling is mutual, Sarah. It's great. A lot more formal than our basements.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:08:41

So to introduce you, you know, I thought we would kind of fit in the theme of the Optimal Blue Summit. So on stage this morning, CEO of Joe Tyrell, Chief Product Officer Aaron Wester announced a handful of innovations, and there was lots of AI.

So in the spirit of AI, I thought we would ask Microsoft Copilot to introduce you. So I'm going to share what. What Copilot had to say, and you can rate their work, so.

s. She joined housing wire in: 2013

Under her leadership, Housing Wire's content team has received numerous accolades. She is known for her ability to execute multiple content strategies and her deep knowledge of mortgage and real estate technology. I did pretty good.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:09:33

I mean, very accurate. So thank you.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:09:36

All right, well, so we thought we would do something a little different with you as our guest today.

You are, you know, as editor in chief of Housing Wire, you kind of are at that center of where the mortgage and real estate industries are getting their news.

So we thought we would take this opportunity to actually get to know you a little bit better by playing a round of 20 questions with editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler. Does that sound okay?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:09:58

No, that sounds like fun. Okay, now. Now I'm in the hot seat.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:10:01

I see you are in the hot seat.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:10:03

Yeah, we flipped it on you. You've interviewed, like, half our company at this point, so we wanted to put you on the. On the spot.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:10:09

So I'll kick us off. How did your career journey bring you to be editor in chief of HousingWire?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:10:16

You know, I majored in print journalism, so, you know, that, I don't know, next to like, archaeology, I mean, like, print journalism was already dead by the time I graduated, I think. So it's been kind of a winding path. So I've had.

I worked at small newspapers and then truthfully, I had to take jobs and not had to, but I couldn't continue to pursue that. So I went into marketing, communications, advertising.

And so when it came to time for the to join housingwide, they were looking for someone who had both journalism and the. And the advertising because I. The first role I did was with their sponsored content.

And actually, I think it was the ideal way to join HousingWire, because I spent the first couple years just doing nothing but writing about technology, mortgage technology. So I feel like that was the. A great foundation for what I do now.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:11:04

Absolutely.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:11:05

Yeah. Makes a lot of sense.

So thinking about what that's led you to and your time at Housing Wire today, can you give us a little bit of a sense of what the day in the life is for Sarah Wheeler at HousingWire.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:11:18

Sure, sure. It's very busy, as you can imagine. So I run three different content teams.

So there's the news team, the research and development team, and then there's also the sponsored content and contributors content. So those teams are busy all day. Usually starts with me being online looking for news.

The way our newsroom is set up is it's based on beats, so people are already looking for specific kinds of news. And we all come together every morning and decide, like, here's the coverage we're going to do. They bring things to the table.

They might pitch, I might assign. There are other editors who do that as well. I take an editing. I take one of the editing. I can't think of the word.

I take one of the turns editing in the morning. So I'm looking at stories. I'm also do a daily podcast and then I have meet with other teams.

What I try to do every single day is make sure I'm connecting with people in the industry. So that's usually LinkedIn. That might be texting, that might be calling, being at something like this.

Because a big part of my job is like, what do people. What do they need to hear? What do they. What do they want more of? What is it?

The information that we can do so that we can provide the very best information for them. And so it's a. And then it, you know, at the end of the day, all the news happens at the, you know, happens throughout the day.

And then there's this rush from like three to six. And so it's all hands on deck from three to six. And these days, you know, it might also be a little bit later than that. So. But it's a fun day.

It's energetic, it's filled with great people that I get to work with. So it's a dream job.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:13:01

Yeah, it sounds like it. And, you know, when you're thinking about all the connections that you've made in the industry, we're putting you on the spot a little bit here.

But if you had to pick out the most memorable person that you interviewed, whether that be on the podcast or for one of the other interviews that you've. You. You've done along the edge. Do you have an individual in mind there?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:13:25

I have a couple. I mean, that's, that's very hard. I usually get to interview the members of my team, so reporters and editors talking about their stories.

When I do outside people, I think Dave Stevens comes to mind. Just an icon in the industry and somebody who was very generous with his time with our organization.

And then that would be the, that would be the fun one, I think. On the other side. I did an interview with Rohit Chopra recently in the last couple of months, and I think that was interesting.

And also, I'm usually, the podcast is usually a pretty friendly environment. I have people on. I'm not trying to be like, let's, you know, let's get you, you know, have a gotcha question.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:14:09

Yeah.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:14:09

But I was more like, you know, with Rohit Chopra, I wanted to ask him some hard questions. Well, he came out of the gate and he was like, sort of like antagonistic toward me, so I'm not used to that.

And, and he did it in the nicest way possible because he's a politician. So it was a really fun time to be like, okay, we're doing this, let's do it.

And kind of a different kind of podcast for me and really trying to get some answers for the people in our industry, which is what we feel like we can do. Like, they don't regulate us. There's nothing they can do to us. So we're going to ask all the questions that maybe the audience wants to know.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:14:40

Do you ever get nervous interviewing high profile people?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:14:43

No, not really.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:14:44

Lazy.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:14:45

Just do research and homework and. But I mean, it's just, it's just if you're, if you're prepared, there's no, no reason. Not really.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:14:53

Yeah, so you mentioned, you know, you, you, you host a daily podcast, which is no small feat. Tell us what that's like.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:15:02

You know, it is, it is something that I can do because I have such an amazing team. So I am almost always talking about the content that this entire team of people puts together. So it makes it way easier than if you' do a podcast.

You're like coming up with all the content yourself. I'm just looking at, like, what's trending, what we can talk about. And I'm talking to people who know much more about it than I do.

And then I have Logan Motorshami, who's our lead analyst. He's on three times a week. And really when Logan's on, I mean, it is very funny. And I, we talk for about five minutes beforehand.

We're like, okay, what are the topics we're going to talk about? And that's all we do. That's the only prep. Because it's going to go in a lot of different directions.

And because we talk so often, it's like, and I edit his things, specifically his articles. We're aligned on what we're going to talk about.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:15:49

You two are always so in sync in your episodes with him. Any fun tidbits to share or memories of working with Logan?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:15:57

I think one of the funnest things about Logan is he's just so fast on.

He'll come up with stuff on the fly that sticks, so he'll come up with some sort of catchphrase that then, you know, I'll laugh at it and I'll be like, oh, that is just cringe or whatever. The audience loves it. Before I know we have merch that they're sending us that they've made out of his catchphrases.

And I'm like, how did this happen? Like, you were just talking. So he's just. He's very funny. He's. He's very expressive and he'll the. The more passionate he gets.

He's moving around, he's hitting the microphone, he's going in and out and so in. It is just a very funny episode always. And then in the middle of that, he's giving this really sort of deep economic talk.

So I think it's such an interesting conversation and a lot of times I'm learning stuff along with it.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:16:45

So, yeah, that's great. So back to the newsroom.

When a major story is developing, can you help us understand what that journalistic process looks like for your team as you activate to report on something?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:16:58

Sure. So we are all day long, we're talking to each other in Slack, and so someone gets a tip.

And I think over the last week we've done five breaking news alerts to our audience.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:17:08

There's been a few.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:17:09

Yeah, a few things going on. So like I said earlier, we have. The journalists have Beats, so they're covering specific parts of the housing market. So.

And in that, one of their big assignments is they have sources that are going to talk to them first, hopefully. So we get the news first. It doesn't always happen.

And sometimes it's, you know, if Trump says something on national news, that's not us getting it first. So somebody puts it in Slack and if, if it's their beat, they're like, I've got it. That activates the editor to be like, I'm standing by to edit it.

Another editor will get the breaking news ready to go. And it's just sort of an all hands on deck. But it really comes down to that individual journalist.

And, you know, they're fast, they're great at what they do. And, yeah, it's fun. I think that's. I Think, you know, this sort of environment, it's a lot of work, but it's also really fun if you're a journalist.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:17:58

Yeah, every journalist I've ever worked with in this industry and other industries, they're definitely like the epitome of being driven by passion. So you become a journalist because you're passionate about truth telling and reporting and informing, you know, the world, really.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:18:15

So I agree. And I think our journalists, they really embrace the cause. Like, at HousingWire, we feel like homeownership is a good.

It's a good for society, it's a good for those individual families. It's good for our country.

And I think everyone we hire feels that way and really understands that, like, the people that are in our audience are working really hard to do that. So it feels like a good. A good thing to be involved in.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:18:39

Yeah, it certainly is. And, you know, you do a lot of goodwill. So many folks in the industry are reliant on Housing Wire for their news.

Is there any news sources that you would say, whether it's yourself or. Housing Wire relies on external news sources. Do you have your. Go to places where you're following news or maybe go to sources you're connected.

You might be getting it directly from the horse's mouth in certain cases.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:19:05

I think that that is some of the most valuable information that we have. And so every one of the journalists has their own source list.

Sometimes they overlap, but mostly that is something that they are establishing and, you know, engaging with people on a very regular basis so that when something happens, they get the first call or. So often we hear something and then we, you know, we have to confirm it and we're gonna talk to the company, whatever. But it's.

It's having people who pick up the phone when you call or answer your text or. And so that's super important. Other than that, we are all.

I'm subscribed to so many, you know, city newspapers, local newspapers, anything, because so much housing stuff comes. Starts first locally and then, of course, all the major Wall Street Journal, New York Times and all those things.

So I think we're all just all online all the time.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:19:56

Yeah, I believe it.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:19:58

But I mean, that's what we love, so. Absolutely.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:20:02

Well, so as mentioned, CEO Joe Tyrell took the stage this morning at our Optimal Blue Summit. You have actually interviewed Joe a handful of times, both during his tenure at Optimal Blue and prior.

Anything stand out as, like, the most memorable interview with Joe or funny memories that you have.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:20:18

You know, I don't know about funny.

It's just that he, he has the ability to sit down and I've, I've flagged him down in like as he's walking someplace and he sits down and gives an interview and it's like, I mean, it's like he had, I mean, he knows, he knows it so well, what he's talking about. But I think for me it's like he is able to talk about things that are pretty complicated.

And it doesn't sound either like, oh, he's, you know, he's reading off this thing and he is able to give that in a way that I feel like I understand and our audience understands. And I think that's actually really hard. I really think that it's harder than people think.

And then the other thing is I've, I've sat down like in that hallway meeting, I remember that was a couple years ago. He will sit down and speak and he has no verbal tics. Okay, now you have to listen. Does he have any verbal tics? I think the answer is no.

That's amazing. Like, he could be on camera. I could be. I'm not. I'm usually just typing. But like, it's, it's crazy to talk to someone.

And I think again, that's just such a skill of like the communication combined with the expertise of what he's talking about. So he's always been very generous with me and with my staff as far as, like, if we don't understand something, explaining something, you know.

So, yeah, he's, he's one of my favorite people to interview. That's great to hear.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:21:35

And I actually think what you just said at the end, him being generous with his expertise and his knowledge is one of the reasons why he has been such a good fit for Optimal Blue. Because we have lots of experts who are kind of the same way. So he's really fit in so well. Super happy to have his leadership.

Another executive of ours who you know very well is our Chief Marketing Officer, Sarah Holtz. So I thought it might be fun to ask a brand related question. Housing Wire has an incredible brand and you guys continue to add events, content.

Like, can you talk a little bit about how the Housing Wire brand has come to life and evolved and continued to grow in past years?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:22:11

Yeah, no, that's a great question.

I would say, you know, so what we kind of talk about internally is like the full picture and it really is because we do cover real estate, mortgage title and appraisal. And the way that those things inform each other, we think is our secret sauce.

And we really feel like what we can bring that maybe others can't, is that we're not just a mortgage publication or real estate.

In the last year and a half, with all the things happening with NAR and the way that that affects the potential mortgage operators, it's like, that's a perfect example of like, listen, you're getting all of the latest news on that and we understand it from both perspectives. And so I feel like that's really where it comes together.

And then we really think that what we've done recently is really bump up our data that we have with ALTOS research.

And so the Data Informed journalism, the Data Informed podcast, whatever we're doing, that has been a real game changer, I think, for us, because we want it to be based on we need to give information that is very valuable and also nobody else has. And that's ALTOS data.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:23:19

Very good. I know. Brennan's ears probably perked up.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:23:22

Yeah, I heard data. Yeah. Coming from a data oriented podcast and report that is associated with this podcast. We love to hear that.

So it certainly seems like that's been a trend in the industry. Right. More data oriented reporting in general, which is great to see.

We've got a few more questions for you here, which I'll say are sort of under the umbrella of philosophical in nature. So, um, Sarah, how about one piece of advice that you wish you had received early in your career?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:23:52

Ooh, that's really good. Um, I think it's, be your authentic self. I think these days that's, that's a message that we all understand more.

I mean, we listen to podcasts where people are just sitting on their couch talking to each other for three hours or in their basement or Smith, or in my, my living room. Um, but when I started out, it was kind of like, you know, you had to, you know, a journalist had this Persona that's really not me.

I mean, I'm a pretty mild mannered person. I think I'm sharp, but I'm not. Like, I'm not going to be in your face about something. And that's actually been great for my career.

I feel like I've been able to build a lot of relationships. I think it's why people talk to me the way they do. But early on it was kind of like, oh, I have to fit into this thing. And now we all know more.

Like, if you are authentically who you are, that's going to be better in the end anyway. Show up who you are in all those situations and that's where the success is. And I think that I know that now, but I didn't know that then.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:24:52

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And if you think about just how much content there is out there, it's just that much more important to be authentic, because that comes through.

Right. In terms of what you're recording or what you're presenting out to the public.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:25:07

Well, people don't want really even overproduced anything. I mean, we're all tired of it. It comes off as commercial. Right.

So it's like, the more, like, you're a real person, the more people are like, oh, okay, I trust that. I want that. And I think that's one of the best things about just the distribution of media. Right. Over the last 10 years.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:25:24

Completely agree. Totally democratizing it. The trust piece is big, right? It's. Who can you trust? Another one, maybe Similar path.

What's a fun fact that most people don't know about you?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:25:37

Oh, my gosh, a fun fact. So here's the thing about doing a daily podcast. Like, stuff leaks out.

You don't mean to tell people, but, like, you know, I have a Bernese mountain dog because I'm always dressed like. I'm dressed like I'm in the tundra and I'm in Dallas, and people are always like, why are you wearing that?

It's like, I have to keep it really cold for my dog. Right. Because he's not supposed to be in Texas. But everybody knows that. So what? What might people not know? Okay, here.

Here is something they might not know. I am a big fan of 80s Chuck Norris movies. So the Octagon.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:26:11

Think that the Octagon's gonna come over your eyes.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:26:14

See, that's surprising. I love martial arts movies. I love Chuck Norris. The Octagon kicked it off. Yeah. You know, he went on a run there.

I don't know, there's like 10 or 15 movies there. So. Yeah, love that. Maybe that's my guilty pleasure.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:26:27

Are those on Netflix? Because I might add them to my queue when I go home.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:26:31

You know, I have them on dvd, so I'm not sure if they're on Netflix. I'm old school on that, so I love it. Yeah.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:26:39

What about. You've had this incredible career. You've done so many interesting things, talked to so many interesting people.

Have you ever taken, like, a significant risk that, you know, regardless of how it turned out, you learned something really memorable from it?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:26:56

Oh, that's a really great question. I do think it was starting doing the podcast, doing that kind of thing.

So when we started this housing wire daily wasn't our first one, I don't think. I think we did girl funds first. We also had Housing News. We've had some different iterations, but I wasn't a podcast listener at the time that we.

I mean, I listened to a couple of them, but I wasn't really into it. And Brenna Nath was like, we've got to do this. And Clayton Collins, like, was like, we got to do this. And I don't think I was anyone's first choice.

Let's just say that I do not think I was anyone's first choice to do this. And when it came down to, like, we're going to do this daily, it fell to me, and I was like, I don't know. Can I even do that? But I think it's.

It's part of what Clayton has always. He's our CEO, and what he's always done with all of us is like, he just was like, I think we're going to do this now.

Yeah, you're going to do this now. And you're like, I don't know how to do that. And he's like, yeah, okay, well, that's good. You can learn. You can learn to do that.

And that's true with our events. When we started events. That's true with so many of the things that we've done. And I've loved podcasting.

And just seeing that, like, it's like, okay, well, just start doing it, learn it, do it. And that idea that, like, you can do anything, you can just start. Is something that we, I think, is kind of in our DNA at Housing Bar.

Yeah, we're lean. We're always doing things that we don't exactly know at first, and then they develop into good things.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:28:19

Yeah. So that's great. Is there a single thing that stands out during your career at HousingWire that you're most proud of?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:28:28

I'm really proud of the way that we handled Covid. I feel like that was a time when our industry was adapting so fast.

Everybody had to step up, and we needed to step up for them to give them the information they needed and what was going on. And we had to do all that along with people. And that was right when we were changing kind of our newsroom at the time into being more of a.

Doing things that were more in depth, things like that. So there was a lot happening. But I'm.

I'm really proud of how we showed up and hopefully supported the industry during the time they were showing up and doing everything they could for their, for their clients.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:29:09

Yeah, I mean you were a clear resource that, that stood out. At a time with a lot of volatility, a lot of uncertainty in the market, people become so much more reliant on the reporting that you all do.

re early February, looking at: 2025

What's on the horizon for Housing Lawyer this year?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:29:36

Oh, I love this question. More growth. I just added another person to my team, maybe another person by the end of the, by summer.

And I think what we talked about before with data is something that that's. That data and research based on that data is something that we are leaning in on investing in.

And I think that that's pretty exciting and that informs all, you know, Altos Research's real estate data. But how that informs so many of the other things we're doing is pretty exciting.

So I would say that that's the growth opportunity for us and just there's still lots of people out there who need to know who HousingWire is and find us as a res. So we're excited about growing that audience.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:30:20

That's great.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:30:21

I want to talk about the events that Housing Wire has. I know you have had some really great events in the last couple years and you continue to add them.

So I would love for you to tell our audience about the gathering but also some of the other one day summits that you guys are doing in the coming year.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:30:37

Well, thank you for saying that. Actually we love events and I think part of the thing that makes our event so great is like it's really the culture at housingware.

Like we enjoy working with each other, we enjoy what we're doing and I feel like it comes out in events. It does. And we enjoy the people that we're bringing in to talk. And so I feel like it does have a little bit different.

We expanded this last year so that we sort of narrowed in on different topics. So we had an AI summit, an IMB summit and now we're having our Housing Economic Summit, our first one in a few weeks. So really excited about that.

That one day summit lets us zero in and people come and they're getting just a full day of content. But also then we have some breaks that they can do that where they can network and things like that. So that's been really fun.

And we weren't sure how those were going to go and they sold out. We've had tremendous success there. Been really Fun. That's Brendan AF and her team. The Gathering. We took something that had been going on for decades.

So real Trends had the gathering which was like a four day, almost like a homecoming for people. And it was just such a special event. And we combined it with our Housing Wire annual.

Knowing that like we're taking this thing that a lot of people felt very, you know, had a lot of feelings about and, and we didn't want to break it. We wanted to honor it and combine it and have that full picture. And we did that for the first time last year and it was incredible.

I feel like it was, it went really well. So we're doing it again. We'll keep doing it. That's in June and it'll be at the Broadmoor.

And the thing I love about that is just that the, all the people in the same place and the synergy that happens there with having, you know, your real estate and your, and your title and your appraisal and your, and your mortgage. And we have different days, kind of like, hey, this is a mortgage day, this is a crossover day, this is a real estate day.

But I think the, the whole is, is bigger than its parts. That, that's how it feels to me.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:32:34

And that very much relates to what you spoke about earlier that makes Housing Wire so unique is that it kind of brings these otherwise siloed verticals together into one cohesive look at the market.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:32:46

So well, especially if you think about like what is this industry going to look like in the next 10 years. And one of the things, the questions that I always think about is who gets to the borrower first, the buyer first, who.

And that's changed a lot over the last couple of years. I think it's going to continue to change. And so those partners that you have is more important than ever.

And knowing what they're doing, what you're going to do, how you're going to work together.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:33:09

I think, I think we're probably getting close here on the time square. I'm sure we could talk all afternoon. But I did have one more question for you. You're such an industry expert.

I'd like to get your perspective on something that you'd like to see shift in the industry or change.

So is there anything, if you had your, a magic wand and you could, could control something about the mortgage or real estate industries, is there anything you can think of that you would do specifically? I guess it doesn't have to be one either. If there's, there's a couple.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:33:42

I think it comes Back to like, you know, my roots at Housing Wire were that, was that mortgage technology. And I feel like we still are not at the point where the mortgage technology is, broadly speaking, not talking about specifics, is.

Is helping the cost to originate and in. In the way that we all thought it would. There's so much promise there. And so how do you unlock that promise?

And I think, you know, one of the things that this conference that I really appreciate is there is a. There's a focus on profitability, like tech for its own sake. What? We don't need more tech for its own sake.

If it's making you more profitable, if it is providing better customer service. Right. This is what's going to change. And we see it in the way that you guys are leveraging AI and other people are leveraging AI.

So I hope that the technology promise really comes to fruition in the next couple of years and makes a difference in the way that everybody needs it to make a difference, which is not replacing everybody in the mortgage industry, but really, you know, leveraging what it can do so that they can be actual experts and sit there. That's what I hope.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:34:49

Now, we appreciate you saying all that, and we completely agree.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:34:53

Right.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:34:53

This profitability mission at Optimal Blue, it absolutely benefits our originator clients and partners. But then obviously, that benefit does flow downstream to the end consumer and should ultimately lower the cost of homeownership for.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:35:07

Folks, which would be a net good for all of us. And let's get mortgage rates down. Let's do that. Yeah.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:35:12

Well, and this is such a good segue into what we call our bonus question that we pose of all of our guests at the end. So, as you mentioned, Optimal Blue's mission is to help lenders maximize profitability.

So we like to ask every guest we have on the market advantage, what's one thing you think lenders can do to help maximize their profitability so that they can in turn help more folks pursue the dream of homeownership?

Sarah Wheeler: 00:35:34

They should get their data in order because there's nothing they can do. They're so limited. If their data is not in a place where they can leverage it for all these other things, like, it's the key.

And if, depending if you're a small lender or when you start or whatever, like, if your data is not in order, it's going to be. I don't know how you're going to stay in business.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:35:54

And just to be clear, I did not pay you to say that. Right, Sarah? I just want to have that on record. Okay. Love the data reference. Absolutely. We couldn't agree more.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:36:04

Sarah, this has been so great. It's really been an honor to have you here. And hopefully you enjoyed swapping seats for once and not being the host.

So, again, thank you so much for joining us.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:36:14

No, thank you for having me on. And thanks for wanting to know the answers to those questions. And we'll have to compare Chuck Norris knows later.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:36:20

Absolutely.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:36:21

Watch some.

Olivia DeLancey: 00:36:21

It's a date.

Brennan O'Connell: 00:36:22

Yeah. Thanks a lot, Sarah. This has been great.

Sarah Wheeler: 00:36:25

Thank you.